[Buckeye]

I don't think it's so much of a level playing field issue with ES to me.

It's the fact that they are illegal to sell and in fact cannot not be sold on many websites like XS. There is a NDA that goes along with Intel sending these chips out to manufactures and others and it has been know for a long time that it is illegal to sell them.

Buy allowing them to be used on HWBOT supports a black market of the sale of these chips.

I made a few posts on HWBOT about this then just left it alone as I will most likely do here, it's just not worth the internet battle to me about this so I can get a few points on HWBOT and put money into some ones pocket selling these chips illegally.

[3oh6]

Originally Posted by Buckeye

Buy allowing them to be used on HWBOT supports a black market of the sale of these chips.

i understand what you are saying Bill, but my results with the 975ES are 100% legal. i obtained the chip from Intel, i am under NDA, and i haven't broken any aspects of NDA. in this case, allowing an ES is not facilitating the sale of ES.

with that said, i know my case is in the minority and not the majority. if you really want to stop the sale of illegal ES's, it isn't up to HWbot or XS or anyone else. it is Intel. if they were accountable for the samples they send out, it wouldn't be an issue. that is my take on and as you said, the discussion can go no where fast, and i do see your side...i just have a different angle i am trying to share with you, that's all.

[DrNip]

None of this is going to stop me from benching though. Its what we got and what we have to deal with.

[Kal-EL]

I think Chuchnit is correct in his logic here. When dealing with a corporation, little matters more than the bottom line, $$$$$$.

Sure corporations will tell you everything that their marketing research consultant tells them will give a "Good" Company Image. Product/Company "Image" effects sales. Corporate espionage occurs every second and agents get paid for obtaining special information. People have been busted for it countless times.

In this instance, the press generated by monster performing chips drives interest and sales. Its far too valuable for these companies to seed the market with buzz making ES or CHerry samples.

Reviewers are frequently slapped with NDA agreements before givin new "Cherry" hardware to publicise and review. These agreements dictate what information can be said about the product and what areas can be covered. I know this for a fact. As a small example, XXXXXXX, THE premiere boutique system builder on the web, sends out ES sample ridden hardware to reviewers + strict NDA agreement for ALL reviews. I found this out after spending the time befriending a certain employee. At the time, I was curious as to why the load temperature mistakely shown in one fo the reviewers screenshot exceeded Intel's spec's for the same retail processor.

It's just not gonna be resolved by the big company's or little ones at that.

I'll still keep beating my drum on the hardware tho, why? , because I love competing.

[Buckeye]

Originally Posted by 3oh6

i understand what you are saying Bill, but my results with the 975ES are 100% legal. i obtained the chip from Intel, i am under NDA, and i haven't broken any aspects of NDA. in this case, allowing an ES is not facilitating the sale of ES.

with that said, i know my case is in the minority and not the majority. if you really want to stop the sale of illegal ES's, it isn't up to HWbot or XS or anyone else. it is Intel. if they were accountable for the samples they send out, it wouldn't be an issue. that is my take on and as you said, the discussion can go no where fast, and i do see your side...i just have a different angle i am trying to share with you, that's all.

It's all good Jodi
Keep on Benching

[DrNip]

I've asked this before but how do you obtain an ES chip? I know you have to apply for one or something like that but what are the qualifications to receive one?

[rickss69]

The more I hear of this the more depressing it becomes. Perhaps if the greater public could read some of this material and the goings on at the bot they would have a better perspective of these manufacturer's...

[Chuchnit]

Originally Posted by 3oh6

this is next to impossible. take the guys benching on "air" in -40C ambients. i can use water cooling but run that water at -30C. as for actually determining what cooling guys are running, impossible. you want to open the door to further rule breaking, introduce cooling categories. there just isn't a feasible method for policing, implementing, or determining cooling categories.

Thanks, but you are right. That's why I don't say much about the cooling thing. It's just one of those impossible things to control. I however don't see a problem if you bench super cooled air. It's still aircooling, right? Same with water. Supes made his own chiler. Anyone who wants can.

Originally Posted by 3oh6

as for the last part of your statement, one word...BrianY. top 10, not a single piece of sponsored hardware. nothing handed to him, nothing binned except by him personally...and he isn't a millionaire. works every day of his life just to get by and feed his family. complaining that you can't compete is bullshyt, it is an excuse, plain and simple.


i am not sponsored in any way either, i do reviews in order to facilitate my benching. and if you think by doing a review for a piece of hardware is having it handed to me, think again. 80 hours of work for a proper review is hardly free. having the thousands of dollars of equipment to facilitate a proper review is not free. the knowledge to write a proper review is not free. the knowledge needed to understand all aspects of a piece of hardware for a proper review is not handed to you.

instead of whining, i compete by using what i have at my disposal. my skill set, my other hobbies, my knowledge to write reviews, to obtain hardware, and to bench that hardware. it is much easier to whine than it is to do something about it. you don't have to do it my way, everyone has their own methods, but just do it...don't complain.

I don't whine, cry, or throw a temper tantrum. Why? Because it's useless. The truth of the matter is I have other priorities that take my money over hardware fundage. Most importantly I lack the time. Do I say it sucks competing against sponsered guys? YES I do!! Do I say it is unfair. NO!! It is what it is. Honeslty I'd love to be one of those guys one day.

Now the truth of the matter is this; you gotta have big money to play with the big boys. You say BrianY. isn't sponsered, works everyday, etc. I'm sure thats true, but he also has a ton of $$$$$ worth of hardware. Point blank, its a money game almost as much as talent. Once again am I crying, etc? No, I just wish I had the availablility of the hardware. I don't whine. I just beat the crap out of the hardware I have available I hope thats the spirit everyone has. If anything compete with your personal best scores.

Now to point out something you mentioned about how you get hardware. This is one of my issues with the bot. Not the benchers but their stupid rules. HARDWARE SHARING!! You just mentioned that you bench your review samples. You don't own them. As a matter of fact, that same video card could be sent to gomeler, madshrimps or another reviewer that has a hwbot team. IMHO that goes against the whole "idea" behind the hw sharing rule. The thing is that I don't have a problem with how you operate, but rather hwbot's rule.

Here's how I see it. I have uber clocking i7. I mean this cherry does 5.7ghz 32m stable. Fellow hwbot member wants to borrow it to bench 2d. According to hwbot rules, that chip can only be borrowed for 3d runs. Well I see it as if I'm stupid enough to let someone else borrow my uber CPU, and take the risk of them beating me, then that is my problem. But the "spirit" of the rule is to bench what you own. Well alot of great benchers don't own their hardware. Look at the picture Vince posted in his thread on xs. He must have had 20 video cards on the table mounted with pots. He didn't buy those, and I bet some of those he technically don't own; NDA etc. I don't have a problem with that, but I do think its a double standard. Understand that 95% of the time I am all for "sponsered guys"

[rickss69]

Well said Chuchnit...

[Chuchnit]

Originally Posted by Kal-EL

I think Chuchnit is correct in his logic here. When dealing with a corporation, little matters more than the bottom line, $$$$$$.

Sure corporations will tell you everything that their marketing research consultant tells them will give a "Good" Company Image. Product/Company "Image" effects sales. Corporate espionage occurs every second and agents get paid for obtaining special information. People have been busted for it countless times.

In this instance, the press generated by monster performing chips drives interest and sales. Its far too valuable for these companies to seed the market with buzz making ES or CHerry samples.

Reviewers are frequently slapped with NDA agreements before givin new "Cherry" hardware to publicise and review. These agreements dictate what information can be said about the product and what areas can be covered. I know this for a fact. As a small example, XXXXXXX, THE premiere boutique system builder on the web, sends out ES sample ridden hardware to reviewers + strict NDA agreement for ALL reviews. I found this out after spending the time befriending a certain employee. At the time, I was curious as to why the load temperature mistakely shown in one fo the reviewers screenshot exceeded Intel's spec's for the same retail processor.

It's just not gonna be resolved by the big company's or little ones at that.

I'll still keep beating my drum on the hardware tho, why? , because I love competing.

Yep, there is no stopping it. They will just find a way to work around the system.


Something else I wanna say, but didn't want it to get buried in my gigantic post above:

People whine about ES this, sponsered that. "We need a level playing field" crap. Well all that hardware does you about ZERO good without tweaking knowledge, good overclocking skills, and pure determination. All you NBOC guys, look at yourselfs. You guys pull off some awesome boints. I mean that. Almost every member is in 300+ boint range. Just amazing. Is it because you guys have free shit? Nope, its because you guys gots da tweaking skills. Mad props to you guys.

Anyways, the moral of the story here is this. Hiding, withholding and keeping tweaks to yourself makes benching just as unfair as hardware sponserships if you wanna think about it that way. I for one don't give a crap. I see both sides. I try to share anything I find myself, but respect others wishes when they give me a tweak they don't want public.

Think about this for a sec. K|ngp|n comes to your house. He brings all his gear and sets you up the same rig that he has the 01 record with. All you gotta do is install your OS. He'll set the overclocks up just right for ya. Do you think you could match his score? I for one don't think I could....