New Contest Ideas

[Cecil]

PMed Kal about these ideas, interested in what others think.

For the next contest, instead of being speed limited, have a price cap or generation cap.
IE,
Price cap.
Using newegg prices, or launch MSRPs, have a $700 limit of hardware (or whatever price you would pick).

So someone has an E8400, EP45 mobo, 4gb of 1066 ram, and a 9800GT. Newegg prices would be around $450 or so, so they could compete.

Someone with an i7 975, Classified mobo, 285s, etc... Could not, because their stuff would come to over the $700 limit.

This would also open it up more for people with AMD, and have a larger range of people and hardware compeating. Could have a budget competition too of around $300 for AMD X2s or Pentium Ds with 9500GTs or 4650s etc...

Or have a competition by generation. Nothing newer then a certain month of a certain year or something.


Just ideas. Feel free to mix them with anything else you may have in mind for the future.


The problem with speed limitations, is you can easily cheat it with software OCing tools. I made an example by running 32m Pi at 164x20 instead of 160x20, then using TurboV, set it to 160BCLK. See if you can find anything wrong with this screen by the info in it by itself.

[hellcamino]

I like the price limit idea, if anyone bitches than a reciept from a retail store must be shown as proof or a current retail price that falls within restrictions. I vote that cooling components should be included in the price restriction as well.


Good idea Cecil!

[Kal-EL]

New contest ideas are always welcome for consideration.

Cheating will always be an issue not easily resolved. What we're looking for here is a level playing feild. The primary component is trust and honor within these contests. People can cheat a little or they can cheat alot and it will be difficult to detect. We as admin try to ferret out the undesirables and keep a good clean membership. We can't please everyone all the time.

Even with this new idea, you will have the extreme cold people owning people on air. The intent and goals of the low clock challenge is to allow people limited in their cooling hardware to have a chance to compete in something and get better at the particular benchmark. It's not geared towards pro's with extreme cooling at their disposal. Again, its difficult to regulate but we can sure as hell try.

I have my own intentions mapped out for each particular contest and these intentions don't always fall in line with the competitors. But thats the privelege of digging into your own pocket to foster some fever.

Discussion is always healthy tho, so lets discuss.

[hellcamino]

If you looked you would have seen that cooling was to be included in pricetag in my addition, I do however see your point. How about adding a couple of temp monitors into the screenie? Simply say no sub zero cooling and if someone has a score that is too good to be true just shove a boot in where they won't like it!

[Kal-EL]

I did look and it was inconsequential. No need for the wise assitude during the discussion.

Most software temp monitors do not register below 0c and I do not see the feesibility of requiring benchers to take videos demonstrating running benchmarks and probe placements at the same time then uploading videos.

[Cecil]

Just make it for air and water only, and require realtemp be shown with a second one open showing the Tjmax. Anything under 30C wouldnt be air or water.

[hellcamino]

Just make it for air and water only, and require realtemp be shown with a second one open showing the Tjmax. Anything under 30C wouldnt be air or water.

DINGDINGDING!!!!! We have a winner! That was what I was suggesting (or at least trying to) but it seems as though the suggestion was undesirable.

Whatever, it was still a great suggestion Cecil.

[69_Goat]

Just make it for air and water only, and require realtemp be shown with a second one open showing the Tjmax. Anything under 30C wouldnt be air or water.

Yes, it could be. I run a water loop, without a rad, and my res is a 20L pail. When I'm running 32M SPi, I change out my water while my Waza file is transfering from one drive to another. Right now the coldest water I can get out of the tap is about 10C, which would put my min temp at somewhere under 20C. Someone with an AC blowing on their rad would also have lower temps.

The idea of a Low Clock Challenge is to limit CPU speed and force contestants to develop into better tweakers. I know I've learned alot in the last few days and really surprised myself with my latest run.

The price cap idea may have merit, allthough I'm not sure how to price my cooling setup, as I machined the block myself. Taking R+D into consideration, I've got better than 1K into the WB alone.

[Cecil]

Yes, it could be. I run a water loop, without a rad, and my res is a 20L pail. When I'm running 32M SPi, I change out my water while my Waza file is transfering from one drive to another. Right now the coldest water I can get out of the tap is about 10C, which would put my min temp at somewhere under 20C. Someone with an AC blowing on their rad would also have lower temps.

The idea of a Low Clock Challenge is to limit CPU speed and force contestants to develop into better tweakers. I know I've learned alot in the last few days and really surprised myself with my latest run.

The price cap idea may have merit, allthough I'm not sure how to price my cooling setup, as I machined the block myself. Taking R+D into consideration, I've got better than 1K into the WB alone.

Under 30C is easy with water when idle, but after running a bench or stressing, it would go up.

As for the cooling, I say that have nothing to do with the price limit. Just the main parts,
board
cpu
ram
vid card/s

And just provide proof that you arent in sub zero temps. And for the most part, we would know if someone had extreme cooling by the CPU speed.

[karmakazi]

You could have a contest to think up a contest... Best contest idea wins a prize! j/k

The $$$ cap would work fairly well I imagine. As long as you go by MSRP or newegg pricing for purposes of the contest. Would make AMD systems more competitive and give those people a chance.

A hardware revision/generation restriction might actually exclude some people since they might not be able to spend the dough to get a particular series card.

[DrNip]

I think telling what cooling you are using would be too hard. That is why HWBot doesn't score points for different cooling. Not to say it can't be done, I just don't see it. I see the price cap having more flaws than the speed cap. I do give you guys props on trying to reinvent the wheel. Gets hard at times doing this. Keep the ideas flowing.

[Kal-EL]

If you looked you would have seen that cooling was to be included in pricetag in my addition, I do however see your point. How about adding a couple of temp monitors into the screenie? Simply say no sub zero cooling and if someone has a score that is too good to be true just shove a boot in where they won't like it!

I did look and it was inconsequential. No need for the wise assitude during the discussion.

Most software temp monitors do not register below 0c and I do not see the feesibility of requiring benchers to take videos demonstrating running benchmarks and probe placements at the same time then uploading videos.

Just make it for air and water only, and require realtemp be shown with a second one open showing the Tjmax. Anything under 30C wouldnt be air or water.

DINGDINGDING!!!!! We have a winner! That was what I was suggesting (or at least trying to) but it seems as though the suggestion was undesirable.

Whatever, it was still a great suggestion Cecil.

Yes, it could be. I run a water loop, without a rad, and my res is a 20L pail. When I'm running 32M SPi, I change out my water while my Waza file is transfering from one drive to another. Right now the coldest water I can get out of the tap is about 10C, which would put my min temp at somewhere under 20C. Someone with an AC blowing on their rad would also have lower temps.

The idea of a Low Clock Challenge is to limit CPU speed and force contestants to develop into better tweakers. I know I've learned alot in the last few days and really surprised myself with my latest run.

The price cap idea may have merit, allthough I'm not sure how to price my cooling setup, as I machined the block myself. Taking R+D into consideration, I've got better than 1K into the WB alone.

Under 30C is easy with water when idle, but after running a bench or stressing, it would go up.

As for the cooling, I say that have nothing to do with the price limit. Just the main parts,
board
cpu
ram
vid card/s

And just provide proof that you arent in sub zero temps. And for the most part, we would know if someone had extreme cooling by the CPU speed.

You could have a contest to think up a contest... Best contest idea wins a prize! j/k

The $$$ cap would work fairly well I imagine. As long as you go by MSRP or newegg pricing for purposes of the contest. Would make AMD systems more competitive and give those people a chance.

A hardware revision/generation restriction might actually exclude some people since they might not be able to spend the dough to get a particular series card.

I like the contest to think up a contest idea.

The best bet to avoid pissing in the wind would be for each person involved in this discussion that is willing, to formulate a completed contest rule set. It'd then be easier to tear it apart and build it up and find where the rules need adjustments. Dealing with it piece by piece hypothetically won't get enough traction.

So, if you would, lets see a post with a fully functional rule set for the next proposed contest. In the meantime, I'll see if I can dig up a reward for best idea.

[Shahryar_NEO]

so helpful topic !

price cap is a innovation in contests that is really good !

another thing is please use benching softwares which validation way was clear and reliable ! like CPU-Z validation or ORB Link because as you can see now i got a problem with my SuperPI32M result that if there were any validation links like ORB and ... i could validate it and nobody could accuse me !

[Bones]

Well, here's an idea.

I've seen folks asking for a bench involving their RAM. It could be based on timings, MHz speeds, ect, and there are a few benching programs specifically for RAM.
The program I've used before is Rightmark Memory Analyser.

Learning how to tweak your RAM is an important part of benching and this program will give you a reference to use for how well your RAM is doing with the tweaks you have.

Here's the link if you guys want to try it out and see if it might be useable:
http://downloads.guru3d.com/RightMark-Memory-Analyzer-v3.8-download-844.html

[Cecil]

How about this one.
Crytek claimed Crysis Warhead could be played on high settings on a $600 computer, so I say a $600 limit, and Crysis benchmark be the bench.

1280x1024, gamer setting, no AA.

$600 limit for CPU, Mobo, Ram, Vid Card/s going by current prices on newegg. Case and drives dont matter, anywould could use a $5 DVD player and a table as a desk. HDDs also vary too much, but Id say to be fair not allow SSDs.


Then have an Enthusiest one, set at 1920x1080 with a $1000 limit on hardware.

This would also make sub zero CPU temps useless, and AMD boys could compeate.


And if not enough people have Warhead, then we could just use the original, since the demo is free.


Only get to bench one setup per bench.

[Chuchnit]

First off, it's cool to see so many people throwing around ideas. The feedback is greatly appreciated and I take it this means you guys like what we got going on over here.

Now to the problems I see.

Everybody seems to want to have a contest that is so "fair" that almost nobody here will be able to compete. What do I mean by this? Well we are a benching community. That means that more than the majority of the members here have more than $600 in a motherboard and ram. Really with as many classified owners here, just the motherboard almost. So what, are we gonna have a contest where 2 or 3 members even have the goods to meet the requirements?

Ponder on this for a minute. If we held a $xxx hardware limit contest, what are you gonna want next when the "pros" spend the money just to have hardware to compete? Then we would be hearing about it not being fair again. See how hard it is to hold a contest where everyone thinks it's "fair"?

I say we all take these contest as good motivation for practice and personal betterment in that particular bench. Maybe you'll learn something that works for the first time, or even gain the respect of someone who might give you a tip or two. Either way, if you compete, these contest are a win for all.

[Cecil]

First off, it's cool to see so many people throwing around ideas. The feedback is greatly appreciated and I take it this means you guys like what we got going on over here.

Now to the problems I see.

Everybody seems to want to have a contest that is so "fair" that almost nobody here will be able to compete. What do I mean by this? Well we are a benching community. That means that more than the majority of the members here have more than $600 in a motherboard and ram. Really with as many classified owners here, just the motherboard almost. So what, are we gonna have a contest where 2 or 3 members even have the goods to meet the requirements?

Ponder on this for a minute. If we held a $xxx hardware limit contest, what are you gonna want next when the "pros" spend the money just to have hardware to compete? Then we would be hearing about it not being fair again. See how hard it is to hold a contest where everyone thinks it's "fair"?

I say we all take these contest as good motivation for practice and personal betterment in that particular bench. Maybe you'll learn something that works for the first time, or even gain the respect of someone who might give you a tip or two. Either way, if you compete, these contest are a win for all.

Thats why there would be two catagories. One for people who cant afford all the high end stuff, and one for those that can.

[Kal-EL]

Lotsa puzzle pieces but no complete picture.

[Bones]

I can see your point Chuchnit and it's a good one.

Maybe this can be based on something that could be called "Vintage" hardware, the exact parameters to be decided by you guys.

Something you could get cheaply or maybe have in the closet collecting dust you could put to use again. Best thing is you woudn't need alot of $$'s to compete and most of you I believe have some of this stuff just lying around anyway. Finding the parts to build one of these shoudn't be difficult since you can browse places such as Ebay and others to find these parts and believe me, they're out there.
This would allow those of us without the $$'s to have a shot at competing directly with the "Big Guys". In this case, it would take more skill than $$'s to make a good run since as stated, parts for these are affordable and if something should go "Poof", it's not a huge loss for most of us that would hurt so badly.

Extreme cooling is still an issue to be worked on regardless of what's ultimately decided but it's one way I can think of to limit the $$ investment so the little guys can play too and newer OC'ers can feel like they have a chance to test their skills and learn about OC'ing in the first place.

[Cecil]

Then limited and unlimited class.

Limited class.
CPU, Mobo, Ram, Vid card must not exceed $600 using newegg prices. If it doesnt appear on newegg, tuff luck.

Bench, Crysis benchmark. Can be gotten for free here,
http://downloads.guru3d.com/Crysis-Benchmark-Tool-1.05-Final-download-1791.html


Test,
1280x1024 all high settings, no AA, DX9 64bit runs only
timedemo, benchmark GPU
Time of day (9)
3 loops to eliminate SSD advantage.


Unlimited Class.
Anything goes

Test,
1920x1080 all very high 16xAA, DX10 64bit runs only
timedemo, benchmark GPU
Time of day (9)
1 run only to avoid HDD caching, giving advantage to higher end HDD setups.




EDIT
To follow up on Bones post, have a similar benchoff for vintage stuff, using Far Cry 1 as the bench of choice. No dual cores, and bassically, if it uses DDR2, its too new.

[69_Goat]

:thumbsup:Not a bad idea, Bones. I've got some P4 stuff around here that I would like to figure out how to clock properly. I never could get SetFSB or any other software utilities to work for me. It would give me a chance to learn on these older platforms and capture more points on the bot.:thumbsup:

[Bones]

To follow up on Bones post, have a similar benchoff for vintage stuff, using Far Cry 1 as the bench of choice. No dual cores, and bassically, if it uses DDR2, its too new.

Only problem I see right now is that the newest GPU's can still be used with many of these setups. It's possible to go out and pickup a $500 card and PWN the class in the literal sense.

Limitations of the GPU model used would have to be in place to keep things on a more even playing field. Also as an example, AMD 939 DC systems use DDR so it would have to be restricted to single core chips for that class if keeping it single core only.

Again, it's up to you guys on how to handle this.

[Cecil]

Only problem I see right now is that the newest GPU's can still be used with many of these setups. It's possible to go out and pickup a $500 card and PWN the class in the literal sense.

Limitations of the GPU model used would have to be in place to keep things on a more even playing field. Also as an example, AMD 939 DC systems use DDR so it would have to be restricted to single core chips for that class if keeping it single core only.

Again, it's up to you guys on how to handle this.

I figured using a year restriction on GPUs, or generation at least.

[Bones]

I figured using a year restriction on GPUs, or generation at least.

I'd say any GPU based on DX10 or newer is out such as my 8600GTS for example.
All 7 series GPU's made by Nvidia are DX9 based and affordable nowadays.

[Splave]

cool ideas, this thread has

[Neuromancer]

If you looked you would have seen that cooling was to be included in pricetag in my addition, I do however see your point. How about adding a couple of temp monitors into the screenie? Simply say no sub zero cooling and if someone has a score that is too good to be true just shove a boot in where they won't like it!


Well, using newegg as the benchmark for prices would solve any "price" issues. IT does not matter if you paid half or twice the amount. USe newegg prices as a benchmark.

(Still has flaws, as newegg prices change daily, and MIRs would have to be excluded because they do not pertain to everyone)



As for cooling. I am going to try running a duct off a central air vent. Does that mean I have to add 5 or more grand to my price list? lol

[Bones]

Well, using newegg as the benchmark for prices would solve any "price" issues. IT does not matter if you paid half or twice the amount. USe newegg prices as a benchmark.

(Still has flaws, as newegg prices change daily, and MIRs would have to be excluded because they do not pertain to everyone)



As for cooling. I am going to try running a duct off a central air vent. Does that mean I have to add 5 or more grand to my price list? lol

Only problem I can see is if running hardware in a "Vintage" class (If one is created) that's old enough for the Egg to no longer have a listing on it.

I'm not saying there coudn't be a way to resolve this but that's a real sticking point if the class is created. Perhaps with these, using the average Fleabay selling price would work - Maybe? :confused5:

[Cecil]

Only problem I can see is if running hardware in a "Vintage" class (If one is created) that's old enough for the Egg to no longer have a listing on it.

I'm not saying there coudn't be a way to resolve this but that's a real sticking point if the class is created. Perhaps with these, using the average Fleabay selling price would work - Maybe? :confused5:

Was thinking for Vintage stuff, since its sold cheap now anyway, price wouldnt matter. Just anything prior to a certain date in time.

[Neuromancer]

Only problem I can see is if running hardware in a "Vintage" class (If one is created) that's old enough for the Egg to no longer have a listing on it.

I'm not saying there coudn't be a way to resolve this but that's a real sticking point if the class is created. Perhaps with these, using the average Fleabay selling price would work - Maybe? :confused5:

Was thinking for Vintage stuff, since its sold cheap now anyway, price wouldnt matter. Just anything prior to a certain date in time.

Well I would say that depends on "Vintage"

Does EOL count as vintage? I mean 8800s are 9800s are 250s yes? Yeah they are tweaked a little but same basic hardware. Last I saw an 8800 Ultra held or exceeded any 9800 minus the GX2.. (especially at uber high res :) (which does not matter for benching of course)

And do the old wildcat 4000s count as dual GPU lol

(they had 2 gpus on them..)

If we have a vintage class. Must have a limitation. And gen does not work exactly, because of all this. How about era instead.

Wow, I do not envy you guys that have to come up with rules for this stuff (I overthink everything and would get so fuX0red...)

[Bones]

Well I would say that depends on "Vintage"

Does EOL count as vintage? I mean 8800s are 9800s are 250s yes? Yeah they are tweaked a little but same basic hardware. Last I saw an 8800 Ultra held or exceeded any 9800 minus the GX2.. (especially at uber high res :) (which does not matter for benching of course)

And do the old wildcat 4000s count as dual GPU lol

(they had 2 gpus on them..)

If we have a vintage class. Must have a limitation. And gen does not work exactly, because of all this. How about era instead.

Wow, I do not envy you guys that have to come up with rules for this stuff (I overthink everything and would get so fuX0red...)

Well, I did suggest earlier that any "8" series GPU's not be allowed, only the ones that was made to support DX9 by it's specifications or older be what's used in that class.

No, I don't envy the guys who gonna have to make the rules either....

Let's keep the ideas coming.

[DrNip]

Cinebench is a good bench to hold a contest on. use the CPU part of it and set a limit. Last one I was in was pretty fun.

[Cecil]

Cinebench is a good bench to hold a contest on. use the CPU part of it and set a limit. Last one I was in was pretty fun.

I think benches only testing one part of the computer are a bad idea. Easier to cheat with CPU benches, with software adjustments, and a bench to test everything is a good way of seing how balanced the PC is.

[Neuromancer]

Yeah and testing everything gives us AMD guys a shot. :)

Man I wish I had some coding experience. I am going to make a benchmark test yet....

[Bones]

I think benches only testing one part of the computer are a bad idea. Easier to cheat with CPU benches, with software adjustments, and a bench to test everything is a good way of seing how balanced the PC is.

That's a good point Cecil.

Have to agree testing the PC in more than one aspect will reveal how well it does and to also test the skill of the participant. That in itself goes back to the beginner or novice being able to learn the basics or improve in more than one aspect of our cyber-sport.

To do that, a benching program such as SiSandra or Everest could be used BUT to use all the available benching progs, you have to buy it.
One I can suggest we've seen and probrably used before (I have) is NucleaRus MC. RAM timings along with the CPU does matter in that bench. If you've never tried it before, it's a good proggy.
As for GPU, well, there's alot of stuff out there that could be used that either does a blend of benchmarks or is a pure and simple GPU bench.

Ideas?

[Neuromancer]

How about a combination of existing benchmarks. Would not be hard to combine a couple of apps, with a taskmanager screenshot showing them running simultaneously.


Something along the lines of a memory dependent of a memory dependent CPU benchmark, like spi32 combined with a 3d app that is not as CPU dependent. OR Develop a loader that sets affinity for each so if you have a dual core or quad core your can assign one or two cores per application.

If we are talking about making our own benchmark, which seems to be how this is headed, I have some other ideas that I would be more comfortable discussing in a more private setting. Seems to be a unique idea, and would rather not have the idea taken :)

[Bones]

If you visit the EOCF, RunLinux has created a benching program that is based on calculating squareroots.
http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/showthread.php?t=283270

It's actually a nice program he's come up with. Of course it would be a courtesy to let him know if we decide to use it.
He'd appreciate the feedback on it for improving the program.

[Cecil]

I like the idea of using a game. For older stuff, Far Cry was enough to stress CPU and GPU, and memory helped as well. Then for newer stuff, use either Crysis becnh, or X3 TC.

[karmakazi]

I think for any further LLC contests you should not announce the end time AT ALL! Even with the 48 hour window, ppl will just hold onto scores until its announced. If you simply make the contest end abruptly with no warning, it will prevent the backupscore-titis. Everyone will post what they got when they get it, or risk missing the window! Will make it not only more competitive, but will encourage challenging each other to push harder (the point of these contests I think?)

[Rogue210]

I think for any further LLC contests you should not announce the end time AT ALL! Even with the 48 hour window, ppl will just hold onto scores until its announced. If you simply make the contest end abruptly with no warning, it will prevent the backupscore-titis. Everyone will post what they got when they get it, or risk missing the window! Will make it not only more competitive, but will encourage challenging each other to push harder (the point of these contests I think?)


I kinda like that idea....:clapping:

[rickss69]

I like the idea of using a game. For older stuff, Far Cry was enough to stress CPU and GPU, and memory helped as well. Then for newer stuff, use either Crysis becnh, or X3 TC.

I'm in for X3 Cecil. :clapping: That would be a killer bench stessing all components. And make the contest windows shorter...this SPI contest has drug on like molasses.

[Neuromancer]

I kinda like that idea....:clapping:

I concur with Miss Beckinsale :)


Although caveat it with... if contest is not over at midnight GMT, you will have another 24 hours....

or something like.. GIve a definitive end HOUR at least. Gives people a chance that are benching hardcore for a couple of hours to make the best score/time whatever, not get pooched by missing a surprise deadline.

Or Midnight hawaii time I guess would be more Kal's speed :)

[Bones]

I think for any further LLC contests you should not announce the end time AT ALL! Even with the 48 hour window, ppl will just hold onto scores until its announced. If you simply make the contest end abruptly with no warning, it will prevent the backupscore-titis. Everyone will post what they got when they get it, or risk missing the window! Will make it not only more competitive, but will encourage challenging each other to push harder (the point of these contests I think?)

+1 here as well.
If you don't submit it, you missout. That's kind of the point about an unannounced termination of the contest anyway. Also makes it easier to add up things instead of dealing with a flood of entries.

[Vivi]

i have an idea,

how bout we have a E8600 max frequency contest! that should be fun :D?

[Kal-EL]

Can we skip to the part where you win? Get ur booty in the Vantage contest bro