phase change

[Neuromancer]

Not up on this... see it pretty much sucks as far as temps go... well single stage anyway.. I suppose a cascade could rock the house a bit...

Anywho..

I bought a nice audo setup recently and can not use it.

Got good deal on it, I think.


Now I know phase is passé, single stage especially. Done water before and jumped in stupid, did not know about cleaning the rad out, was only a 1x120mm BIX rad, good pump though. All kinds of stupid I was and it sucked bad.

I know more about water now and thing I could make a go of it... but more for silence sake than extreme clocking, since there is not a big differnce anymore.

Guy ahead of me on CPUz for my chip has 700 MHz gain on a SS.


Yah I got the benching bug sorry, and summer is here...

In considering this deal, and someone selling and buying that does not know alot about it. I would trading HW in the range of $600.

Now I have seen SS go for in the $300 range like over a year ago.


So Iam leery.

Also, I understand the basics of refrigeration, from having to google things that extreme coolers talked about back in the day... but my terminology might be off, since its not "experience." So talk experinced to me, thats fine, I will try and digest, and will definitly say if I do not understand or need more explanation :)


1) I assume like all things there is a difference between capability, and capability under pressure. So in comparing 2 units, lowest possible temps might be = under no load, but one unit can keep it cooler longer (or lower temps) when load is applied?

2)Monitoring equipment becomes essential I assume when goign extreme. I stil lhave not gotten a good DMM, but will I have to get a thermal probe or something or is it it "fluff" like the ASUS LCDs or ABits fatal!ty display. (Or does the unit come with something adequate... need to ask thatI guess)

3) I am a tweaker and a modder. without brazing, how tunable are these things? Is it a matter of upping the fans on the condenser rad, recharging with a new refridgerant? etc How do I know If I can go get it "recharged?"

4) Refridgerants... I was told it was unknown but better than ____. I would think this would depend on the unit as a whole... or is it as simple as knowing the gas?

5) chilly1 evap still pertinent?

6) What are they worth?



Thanks to anyone that can help.

[Kal-EL]

I'm not qualified to properly answer your questions but I won't leave them unanswered:

1) Yes, load capacity can be tuned for during the tuning process. What variables need to be adjusted for in terms of refrigerant psi levels and actual form function of the lines is a mystery to me.
2)Drnip, Punx, Buckeye, and prolly a few others can chime in for recommended DMM's. I picked up a black n decker from Sears but noticed the included temp probe doesn't read below 0c very well. So I'd suggest surfin thru the XS dude's screenshots for a proper brand. K-type probes are used for the sub-zero stuff.
3) The amount of Refrigerant plays a role in the capacity and depth of temperatures of the phase rig, a smarter more knowledgable refrigeration expert could explain this.
4) The Leet guys actually mix some refrigerants together to obtain a certain performance. The ratio's are closely guarded secrets.
5)Lotsa people still selling and using the chilly1 head.
6) Completed single stagers are apearing for around 400 bucks thru 1200 bucks (be careful of the Magna_Farce brand)

There should be a refrigeration basics link in the phase section also, FYI.

[Buckeye]

If you are looking to purchase a SS Phase contact Ron from www.Under-The-Ice.com.

I will add more tomorrow, past Buckeyes bed time LOL :)

[ocgmj]

I got my SS from sdumper. http://clubnboc.com/forum/index.php?topic=826.0 fantastic performance and a pleasure to deal with.

[Neuromancer]

I n my multiple edits before I posted I must have deleted the point of the thread.

I have a chance to trade my audio setup for a SS. I am not sure if it is worth it or not however. So any pointers to look out for would be appreciated. I am going to check out those links though right after I get another cup of hangover juice.

[Splave]

specs on the SS you might trade for?

[Neuromancer]

All I know is 1/2Hp rotary, Chilly1 evap and sometihng "better than R22"

I do not even know what to ask him to look for on specs.


http://ben.lostgeek.net/singlestage/111_0504.JPG

Hmm shows right on it R-22.

[Buckeye]

Some of the older SS Phase units were spec'd to loads that might not be enough to handle Core I7 CPU's.

When a unit it built it is ually tuned to a watt range so it can handle that load at a certian temp range. If the load is higher that what it was tuned for temps will end up warmer or even crash the unit.

What CPU's do you plan on using this unit for ?

For Core I7, C2D's you would want ~250watt load SS Phase, so some where close to that.

Here is a good example of what I am talking about.
I have a older SS Phase unit that is very, very nice, sweet case, controller etc. How ever it what we call a Chilly1 Phase unit. It will handle Dual Core setups very well. But throw it on a newer Quad and it will not be able to handle the load.

The Jinu SS Phase unit I had built was tuned for 250watts and handles everything I throw at it very well. I ran my QX9770 @ 4.9ghz 24/7 and it maintained the high -30c's to low -40c range depending on what I was doing. Core I7 chips are np problems for it either.

Some builders like Sdumper and Ron are building what they call benching units that are tuned to 300watt or more range. These make excelent benching units but are rather large for a 24/7 use.

So I ask what are the plans for the unit, 24/7 use or benching ?

Many of the 24/7 units were built to be in a small case and fit under the main computer case, or even inside. These work very well, nice and quit, do not use a lot of power or kick out a lot of heat.

Sorry if I went a bit off track, but all that is stuff to consider when looking at these units.

Do you have a pic or some spec's of this Phase at all ?

[Buckeye]

I speak before I looked at the pic., sorry about that :)

If that is what it is charged with, R22, ask him to turn it on and see what temp it holds unloaded.

[Splave]

what kinda temps did he get with it? Unloaded temps dont say too much the cryo-z gets pretty cool but load temps arent that great

[Neuromancer]

Well it would be for benching only.

On AMD right now, so would be wanting to use it on a AM3 quad although currently it is a dual core.

I will ask him what his experience was with it.

[Buckeye]

what kinda temps did he get with it? Unloaded temps dont say too much the cryo-z gets pretty cool but load temps arent that great

unloaded temps give an idea of how it was charged and with what gasses, and that it even works.

Example if it's unloaded temps are -51c then its ok to procede with checking it out. But if unloaded temps are -20c then I would say its charged with BBQ gas and stay away from it :)

Basiclly it's just to give an idea of the state of the unit, does it work, is it getting to temps to be expected, has any gas leaked out. Thank kind of stuff.

As far as I know R22 is not used anymore by any builders for SS Phase units.

[ocgmj]

I would ask for some pics with a thermo meter hooked up to it also.

[Buckeye]

Do you have any idea who built this ?

It's not often you see Rotary Compressers used for SS units these days.

[Splave]

unloaded temps give an idea of how it was charged and with what gasses, and that it even works.

Example if it's unloaded temps are -51c then its ok to procede with checking it out. But if unloaded temps are -20c then I would say its charged with BBQ gas and stay away from it :)

Basiclly it's just to give an idea of the state of the unit, does it work, is it getting to temps to be expected, has any gas leaked out. Thank kind of stuff.

As far as I know R22 is not used anymore by any builders for SS Phase units.

good call, good call. :D

[ocgmj]

Buckeye you are pretty knowledgeable about phase. Ever try making one?

[Buckeye]

Buckeye you are pretty knowledgeable about phase. Ever try making one?

Not yet. But I do plan on it.

[Neuromancer]

The kid said it is running "Something better than R22"

Buying a Phase unit is not really an option for me, this was something I could trade for, hence why I was even considering it.

There are too many things the kid does not know about hte unit, which is why I started the thread, was hoping that maybe, people could tell by looking at it or tellingme simple things to ask him.

When he comes online tonight I will ask him about the unloaded temps.

Is not knowing what gas is in it a bad thing?
Did some reading on refridgerants today, and it seems you have to change the oil based on the gas used. If I was to get it, is regassing simple enough to do?

Also about hte 1/2HP rotary, are they not used because they are bad?

[Buckeye]

The kid said it is running "Something better than R22"

Buying a Phase unit is not really an option for me, this was something I could trade for, hence why I was even considering it.

There are too many things the kid does not know about hte unit, which is why I started the thread, was hoping that maybe, people could tell by looking at it or tellingme simple things to ask him.

When he comes online tonight I will ask him about the unloaded temps.

Is not knowing what gas is in it a bad thing?
Did some reading on refridgerants today, and it seems you have to change the oil based on the gas used. If I was to get it, is regassing simple enough to do?

Also about hte 1/2HP rotary, are they not used because they are bad?

No they are not bad. For a long time people built Phase units to sit under the main computer making Rotarys to big for that. I see that blue condenser and that I believe came from Chilly back in his days, so I suspect it's what we call a Chilly1 type of SS Phase, usually used for Dual Core CPU's.

But if it has been regased or modded it could be much better, thats whay I asked about unloaded temps.

Regasing a unit is no easy task. You cannot simpy vent the gas out as that is illegal and the gas must be recovered. It then must be vaccumed down to remove all traces of the gas that was in it before. Then regased and tuned to the new load and gas.

Different compressers use different gases and these require different oils inside the compresser depending on teh new gas used. That is also not and an easy thing to do, change the gas the unit was spec'd for and replacing the oil to match the gas.

Phase builders do that stuff all the time and have all the tools needed to do so, if you don't it's best not to try.

[ocgmj]

Also the tool for this type of work are not cheap one bit. Just some things to keep in mind if you plan on trying to regas on your own. You could send the unit to one the guys Buckeye and myself mention earlier, if they are up to it.

[RomDominance]

Another angle is if your audio equipment is saleable, u could sell it, and commission SD to build one around your profit. His 3/4 rotaries are only ~$500 plus shippin I think....and his 1/2 hp's prolly are very reasonable.

[Kal-EL]

Or, your team captain could work on getting you a pot :band2:

[RomDominance]

See there you go....that Supes guy is a resourceful legend in these here parts!

[Neuromancer]

Team captain needs a nob job...

lol

Okay, only new info I can get is its a NoL built. Said there is some bad juju there over at XS, so not sure how to take this. He had skills from what I remember, and lives in Jersey. If he had not dissappeared (?), I could get him to tune it up..

Making me real skeptical and this stuff set me back good money. Am drinking a few beers though and wondering how I could mod it as is.

In case it helps.. The link I posted above for the pic. Go up one level and there is an index of more pictures. Maybe that will help (I always assume everyone knows this but things have changed on the intertubes)

[Splave]

I wouldnt send it to him if the things they say about him are true.

I would just sell your equipment and get a new one built, sdumper has really hooked our team up. 4 units so far :)

[Buckeye]

Team captain needs a nob job...

lol

Okay, only new info I can get is its a NoL built. Said there is some bad juju there over at XS, so not sure how to take this. He had skills from what I remember, and lives in Jersey. If he had not dissappeared (?), I could get him to tune it up..

Making me real skeptical and this stuff set me back good money. Am drinking a few beers though and wondering how I could mod it as is.

In case it helps.. The link I posted above for the pic. Go up one level and there is an index of more pictures. Maybe that will help (I always assume everyone knows this but things have changed on the intertubes)


I would stay as far away as possible from NOL. He never really made good units as quality of builds was not that great. He's a very smart kid tho.

As far as what happened at XS, he was commissioned to do a 2 stage cascade for a guy, took his money, started the build and then something happened which I am not sure if I believe his story. SDumper and Gomeler picked up the pieces and are currently workong on finishing this build. Mean while NOL is on another website doing builds again.

Be care when dealing with builders, never pay up front as thats a lession I learned also. Only buy premade units or ask around first to see what is going on.

It seems that it's not all that uncommon for a builder to get going really well, get over loaded or something happens in RL and then crap happens and people get stuck losing money.

Ron at Under-The-Ice is a very top notch guy, very trust worthy and does things the right way.

For repairs I would contact SDumper or Gomeler as they seem to have it on teh ball these days. Keep in mind tho they are just normal people, going to school and working jobs.

[DrNip]

Boy I forgot all about Under The Ice. Thanx for reminding me.

[rickss69]

Here is the unit I bought from Sdumper and I am very pleased with it. Have run marathon bench sessions with it (18 hours) and never a hitch.

[rickss69]

Here is the thermometer recommended by Scott and I am pleased with it as well.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380125934022&viewitem=&sspagename=ADME%3AB%3AEOIBSA%3AMOTORS%3A1123

[Neuromancer]

LOL well I cant afford that much money for a temp probe.

I have seen guys that have DMMs that also have temp probes on them, it will be neccessary I guess.

Meanwhile, In case my team captain really manages to let me use a pot for a little while I am going to go see if those 2 DMMs and boxs of kneaded eraser are still availble on another forum :)

Also. decided that -30C just is not that cold. Phen II can handle Liquid Helium cooling so my only choices are cascade or pot cooling. Dunno how cold DIce is, hoping it is a bit better than 0F though.

EDIT: Just checked -78C seems a bit better than -30 from the SS :)

[MaadDaawg]

Don't know if this is helpful or not, but... got mine from Sdumper as well. It has a 3/4HP pump and a large (approx 1ft by 1ft COPELAND condenser). Without load it'll bump up to -53.5C , under load it's never gone above -40C, and that's after some serious benching. Has an evap tube about the size of an elephant's trunk, so positioning is no problem, not like those overly expensive Vapo-Chills.

Refrigerant I believe is R507, but like supes says, some of the custom builders add some exotic blends that give them better temps.


The unit came with a temp probe embedded with the evap tubes and plugs into any type K thermo - You can get a good one from Extech for about $100 bucks. If you're into tweaking you really need a true RMS DMM, and Extech has one of those for about $140 that inlcudes an IR remote temp gauge.

What you can do with your rig makes water look a lot like air. It's a whole new ballgame with an ss unit. Have admit though, I'm starting to long for a cascade, or, maybe winning those LN2 pots lol :)

and yeah.. people who take a down payment tend to take a lot longer to build your unit. I didn't pay a cent until the unit was ready to ship :)

[GeorgeStorm]

Hmmm
My unit uses R507 aswel, meant to perform a little better than R404 I believe, or is it the other way round,
Never can remember,
Mine gets down to around -50 unloaded, and was holding an e7300 @ 5G 1.8v at -40 or less,
I wouldnt buy unless you know more about the unit.
Rotaries arent often used in SS as they are more power hungry, and while they perform better, often not enough to warrant the extra room needed/power draw....

[Neuromancer]

Thanks for all the advice guys.

[Neuromancer]

Got more info on the unit

R402A and tuned for 250W